Torque Management: Pics of how it works

[vhato]

I had to go into work today because of an escaped prisoner. So on my way home I decided it was time to plug in AutoTAP and pull some data related to Torque Management. AutoTAP is an AWESOME program that is very customizable. So anyway, here it goes:


Have you ever wondered why your GM Truck seems to run out of power as it revs?

Have you ever wondered why your truck seems so slow after downshifting during wide open acceleration?

What happens when I hit my speed limiter on an 03-04 GM truck?

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO IGNITION TIMING ADVANCE

Abuse Mode
Simple Idle-Everything look great


Wide open from a stop. Timing is pulled WAY back


Still Negative Timing


Finally, A little positive timing


Peak timing of this run


Power Loss: Timing is being pulled again.


Say good bye to any positive timing just before the shift to 2nd


Positive acceleration is back



Top speed run


What is going on? Pedal is to the floor but the PCM is only allowing 50%


99MPH Limit. Foot is still stomped on the gas. Electronic throttling at its best


What it looks like at 75MPH with cruise control


There you have it. All the reasons you need to get rid of Torque Management.

[Gorilla]

Hmmmm sounds like a Wester's is in order.

[LowBlue02]

Wow, that is so god damned cool. AWESOME post.

It's crazy how much the computer controls new vehicles.

So Torque Management is bad, but why do they do it? Less wear and tear, increased longevity for the drivetrain?

[97whitez-71]

yup thats why they do it, so they can spend less on warranty work i guess

[oldred95]

Wow, I can't believe the timing dances around so much. Makes me wonder what my trucks like even though it doesn't have torque management.

[1Silverado02]

Great post ! Thanks for the info.....

[airdeano]

pull a 03-05 chart... watch the throttle angle too...
also watch a dyno graph, the first ramp on horsepower, itll dip (burst) and
reramp upward... all LS1 based engines do it.. more powertrain savers...
good work on the data!
airdeano

[vhato]

Thanks guys,
I appologize for not adding this:

I compiled this data using my new 2004 2500HD, 6.0, 4.10, 4L80-E.
I have been too lazy to update my sig. I assumed since I have Electronic Throttle Control I would see the computer controlling the throttle blade in first gear. But I didn't. Either the data update through he ODB2 bus is too slow or my laptop is too slow (possible). I may do another run with only Ignition Timing Advanced to see if I can get quicker data. The next thing is I expected around -30 degrees to be pulled from a WOT run from a dead stop. Again either the bus is too slow, the laptop is too slow OR Torque Management, when used with the 4L80-E, is not as aggressive as it would be on the venerable 1/2 ton 4L60-E transmission.

I did note 2 things:

1. The data I see is not the result of change, but the PCM requesting a change. For instance, AutoTAP will show I just shifted into 2nd gear, whereas I know I am still in first. The OBD2 bus must only send what the computer is REQUESTING of the components, not if it has been done.

2. The GM OBD2 system has 2 options for Throttle Angle. The first, as you can see, is Throttle Position Angle. This is displayed in %, but is based on voltage I think from 0.1-5 Volts. This shows the exact position of the Throttle Body in the Intake. The next is Throttle Position Desired Angle. I assumed this was the accelerator pedal. However, after reviewing the posted data labeled Top Speed Run I realize this only shows what the PCM is REQUESTING the Throttle Blade to be at. I had it floored, but the PCM was showing both figures to be 58% at 94 MPH all the way to 99MPH. I see no way to display what the driver actually wants it to be at.

Airdeano, I was planning to take a ride to Thunder Racing and put the truck on the Dyno for some before after runs of the SPE Proflash. I will combine that data on another post like this showing what you are asking. Thanks man.

[Zac]

Well now I know why my Westers tune made all the difference in the world. No more bogginess off the line. Of course pulling timing like that will make the truck feel sluggish. When it shifts I really know it now.

IMO, TM is GM's way of preserving the life of the tranny and drivetrain (like others have stated) if the driver is a lead foot. I call the old Torque Managed pcm I had, "Grandpa Tune". Since I've had mine mostly removed, the truck is way more responsive and it only shifts hard at WOT. With normal around town driving the tranny shifts smooth like I didn't even have anything done to it.

I love it now when some guy in a Ford or Dodge comes rolling up to me and thinks he's better, but I punch it to the floor and I'm gone. It's such a great feeling when I'm doing 30 mph, punch it, downshift to 1st and the front end comes up. I can only imagine what they're thinking.

Thanks for the great info...excellent post.

Chevy rules with a Westers tune.

[vhato]

For the members that gotta see graphs. Take a look.
Ignore the last frame of data in each graph because that is where I stopped the graph.

Dead Stop to 4700 RPM. 1st gear-Timing falls to pieces


1st-to-2nd upshift. ~5000 RPM in 1st gear. Again Timing drops into the negative


There you have it. Total loss of HP and Torque.

[04Blue]

Originally Posted by LowBlue02

Wow, that is so god damned cool. AWESOME post.

It's crazy how much the computer controls new vehicles.

So Torque Management is bad, but why do they do it? Less wear and tear, increased longevity for the drivetrain?

I asked my service tech that same question and he told me it's because of the EPA rules. I told him that I thought it was because of saving the drive train and he said that todays transmissions are built so much better than they were 4 years ago, and that wasn't the reason at all.

According to him I guess we don't need TM because our trucks are built so great these days.

[vhato]

Stupid dealer. Sounds like some dude just making up an answer he doesn't understand.


I was sitting back just now and while looking at the graph you can see timing advance begin to fall after 3000 RPM and keep falling until AFTER the tranny has shifted.

[Nick]

I don't really understand why GM doesn't beef up the tranny parts that fail instead of adding more TM everytime they add more power. Off the line, my '04 feels about like an '85 Tempo I had in high school.

[vhato]

Originally Posted by Nick99Chevy

I don't really understand why GM doesn't beef up the tranny parts that fail instead of adding more TM everytime they add more power. Off the line, my '04 feels about like an '85 Tempo I had in high school.

I agree, I would prefer GM to add the already available parts to make the transmission better. However, it is cheaper to add Torque Management.


IMO, even though I don't like its presence.........Torque Management is a brilliant programming idea...IMO.

[OzzHead]

quick question... What will remove the management? i heard wrestlers... is that the only thing that does?

[vhato]

Westers
Nelson

Predator Programmers
SPE ProFlash Programmers

There are tons of companies that will do a custom tune like Westers and Nelson. You might have one close to you.

[dj14901]

Great work, I'd recommend this as a Sticky!

DJ

[vhato]

Something else I noticed in the graph is timing is begin pulled LONG BEFORE peak torque is generated. So I would never see my 300 HP/360 lbft torque advertisement. So the 5.3/4.8 would also never generate peak power either.

[Hit Man X]

Did you ever EFI Live it to check the TPS?

[vhato]

Not yet. I see in EFILive I can prioritize certain items of data. So it is possible EFILive will show us what we are looking for. I haven't done it yet. But I will soon.